Sometimes, the EVE-Bloggers channel provides too much fun.
TL;DR: Vol Jbolaz believes that EVE players should have the ability to “opt out” of PVP and that players who choose to ‘force’ PVP on others have it too easy under the current design. The other denizens of that channel, at least those present last night around 0300 EVE time, did not agree.
UPDATE: Vol has posted a lengthy, thoughtful response on his own blog. I encourage everyone to go read it.
Feel free to share your thoughts below, but I will wield the moderation hammer for great justice if people get unduly rude toward others. That includes toward Vol, who deserves respect for standing up for his game philosophy (even if the philosophy itself doesn’t deserve respect :p ).
(Edited only for readability & typos, off-topic stuff, and such.)
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[ 2009.10.28 02:49:17 ] Debes Sparre > When [the] Orca came out there were calls for it to be nerfed because pirates immediately saw how to get around being flashy and continue suicide ganks in highsec.
[ 2009.10.28 02:49:18 ] Ivanna Nuke > LeSkunk flew one using the lows with stabs and nano fibres
[ 2009.10.28 02:49:22 ] Ivanna Nuke > right into Jita, then to a planet and ganked and eve radio
[ 2009.10.28 02:49:29 ] Escoce > I mean, when you enter high sec, does concord come after you just as though as if you just commited a criminal act?
[ 2009.10.28 02:49:40 ] Debes Sparre > if you’re blinky? no.
[ 2009.10.28 02:49:50 ] Debes Sparre > if you’re gcc? yes.
[ 2009.10.28 02:50:15 ] Escoce > er mean if you attack someone then…sorry for the poor lingo
[ 2009.10.28 02:50:29 ] Debes Sparre > okay, here’s how it works. being a criminal:
[ 2009.10.28 02:51:08 ] Debes Sparre > if you are below the required sec status for a system (-2 in a 1.01, -4.5 in a .5) when you enter the system in anything besides a pod, FACTION POLICE spawn.
[ 2009.10.28 02:51:58 ] Debes Sparre > they web you 90% but if you’re already aligning all it does is make you instawarp, becasue they web before scramming.
[ 2009.10.28 02:52:32 ] Debes Sparre > if you’re in a pod, they will now spawn, and if you board a ship in space they do not spawn.
[ 2009.10.28 02:53:19 ] Debes Sparre > if you either: attack someone whereby getting a GCC OR you get a GCC in lowsec and jump into highsec, CONCORD will spawn.
[ 2009.10.28 02:53:20 ] Vol Jbolaz > So don’t nerf the Orca, fix the “board a ship in space” spawn issue.
[ 2009.10.28 02:53:27 ] Debes Sparre > right.
[ 2009.10.28 02:53:33 ] 00sage00 > why fix it? >.>
[ 2009.10.28 02:53:44 ] Casiella Truza > I think it’s an intended feature.
[ 2009.10.28 02:54:16 ] Debes Sparre > anyways, there are your rules.
[ 2009.10.28 02:54:24 ] Debes Sparre > also, don’t try and reapproach gate under faction police
[ 2009.10.28 02:54:27 ] Debes Sparre > fucking 90% web.
[ 2009.10.28 02:54:38 ] Debes Sparre > (lost a vaga that way)
[ 2009.10.28 02:54:42 ] Ivanna Nuke > /emote bumps orca at 1,400M/S with Demios with trimarks
[ 2009.10.28 02:54:49 ] Debes Sparre > Couldn’t just wapr to a planet and warp back…noooooooooo.
[ 2009.10.28 02:54:57 ] Escoce > so you are “detected” in a ship at session change
[ 2009.10.28 02:55:04 ] Escoce > if no session change, no detected
[ 2009.10.28 02:55:20 ] Debes Sparre > no, session change for switching ships too
[ 2009.10.28 02:55:27 ] Debes Sparre > but it’s not a entering system event
[ 2009.10.28 02:55:32 ] Vol Jbolaz > If you warp to a gate after boarding a ship in space, will there be a faction spawn then?
[ 2009.10.28 02:55:42 ] Debes Sparre > not until you jup to the other side
[ 2009.10.28 02:55:50 ] Escoce > right, that’s a session change
[ 2009.10.28 02:55:55 ] Debes Sparre > no
[ 2009.10.28 02:55:57 ] Ivanna Nuke > Orca is now doing 230m/s away from his fleet boauahahaha
[ 2009.10.28 02:56:04 ] Debes Sparre > it’s when you enter a system. that’s the only time it changes.
[ 2009.10.28 02:56:06 ] Escoce > warping isn’t, jumping is…undocking is…
[ 2009.10.28 02:56:17 ] Escoce > right, you are confirming what I am saying
[ 2009.10.28 02:56:25 ] Vol Jbolaz > Okay, even if the entering a ship was an intended way to skirt the police, they should be alerted as soon as you approach gate/station guns, and they should spawn.
[ 2009.10.28 02:56:26 ] Debes Sparre > Escoce: boarding a ship is a session change.
[ 2009.10.28 02:56:47 ] Casiella Truza > Vol: why?
[ 2009.10.28 02:57:02 ] 00sage00 > casiella, look at his sec status. that’s why
[ 2009.10.28 02:57:04 ] 00sage00 > 
[ 2009.10.28 02:57:54 ] Vol Jbolaz > Yeah, simple logic. Besides, session change is meta game. In the game, it is the sentries that alert. Besides, that is one of the built in protections, that one can find some measure of safety near a gate that they can’t find in a belt.
[ 2009.10.28 02:58:02 ] Vol Jbolaz > Makes sense to me to keep that as intended, too.
[ 2009.10.28 02:58:03 ] Casiella Truza > As far as I’m concerned, CCP specifically allowed this to add a smidgen more risk to high sec
[ 2009.10.28 02:58:17 ] Vol Jbolaz > Yes, more risk to high sec belts.
[ 2009.10.28 02:58:39 ] Casiella Truza > High sec could use a little more danger, IMNSHO
[ 2009.10.28 02:58:41 ] Vol Jbolaz > The probelm is, there are limits to what law abiders can do to protect themselves.
[ 2009.10.28 02:59:05 ] Vol Jbolaz > No, it is way too easy to make good money being a suicide pirate.
[ 2009.10.28 02:59:08 ] Ivanna Nuke > stop being so stupid when they see four ships around them dropping drones, it’s a good idea to GTFO.
[ 2009.10.28 02:59:09 ] 00sage00 > vol, you can just use an alt in a noobship to shoot you and spawn concord at the belt to protect you
[ 2009.10.28 02:59:31 ] Casiella Truza > Vol, I’d rather see insurance payments due to CONCORD action get nerfed
[ 2009.10.28 02:59:40 ] Kellnirr Tiryon > Ditto
[ 2009.10.28 02:59:44 ] Vol Jbolaz > I think CONCORD should leave. Besides, I say no alts.
[ 2009.10.28 02:59:48 ] Prometheus09 > Ditto
[ 2009.10.28 03:00:02 ] Casiella Truza > I actually think suicide ganking should be viable, it should just require preparation and calculation
[ 2009.10.28 03:00:02 ] Prometheus09 > to Casiella that is
[ 2009.10.28 03:00:29 ] Casiella Truza > But definitely take away the insurance payments for it
[ 2009.10.28 03:00:47 ] Casiella Truza > So that it only makes economic sense for REALLY valuable targets
[ 2009.10.28 03:01:04 ] Prometheus09 > what, we can’t do it for fun?
[ 2009.10.28 03:01:15 ] Vol Jbolaz > Look at Teff Nogero on the killboards. Even without insurance, he makes money.
[ 2009.10.28 03:01:28 ] Escoce > I also say no alts…..but most don’t agree, but I have a way around needing alts if people would coordinate and do teamwork, but no, they’d rather pay $15 to get around that particular problem
[ 2009.10.28 03:01:31 ] Casiella Truza > Then that works for me.
[ 2009.10.28 03:01:34 ] Vol Jbolaz > No, you can’t. Because I can’t stop you for fun.
[ 2009.10.28 03:01:55 ] Casiella Truza > Vol, that’s the appeal of EVE.
[ 2009.10.28 03:02:18 ] Casiella Truza > It’s not just supposed to take place in a fictional harsh, cold world. It is a harsh, cold world.
[ 2009.10.28 03:02:29 ] Vol Jbolaz > Griefing is lame. Especially since non-griefers have limits to what they can do. I don’t mind piracy, but griefing should be a permaban offense, always.
[ 2009.10.28 03:02:42 ] Prometheus09 >From the Viewport # 2 – Pictures from the front
[ 2009.10.28 03:02:54 ] 00sage00 > vol, griefing is difficult to define
[ 2009.10.28 03:03:01 ] Chainer Cygnus > ^^
[ 2009.10.28 03:03:08 ] Casiella Truza > Vol, griefing (as defined by CCP) is a bannable offense.
[ 2009.10.28 03:03:13 ] Vol Jbolaz > True, but Prometheus was wanting to cross the line.
[ 2009.10.28 03:03:18 ] Prometheus09 > well suicide ganking is not griefing
[ 2009.10.28 03:03:24 ] Casiella Truza > But, as 00sage00 says, what you think is griefing is not always griefing.
[ 2009.10.28 03:03:40 ] Prometheus09 > it’s when you do it to one person over and over it becomes griefing
[ 2009.10.28 03:03:42 ] Casiella Truza > Salvaging is not griefing, although some mission runners think it is.
[ 2009.10.28 03:03:46 ] Vol Jbolaz > No, it isn’t, and it shoudn’t be, Prometheus. But it shouldn’t be so easy. That way griefers won’t do it.
[ 2009.10.28 03:03:56 ] Casiella Truza > Why should CCP stop it?
[ 2009.10.28 03:04:07 ] Chainer Cygnus > Ah philosophical discussions
[ 2009.10.28 03:04:16 ] 00sage00 > it’s not that easy vol. what percentage of miners today get suicide ganked?
[ 2009.10.28 03:04:17 ] Casiella Truza > You’re taking for granted that your way is “right” and theirs is “wrong”
[ 2009.10.28 03:04:23 ] Vol Jbolaz > Casi, it is griefing because I can’t stop it. If you want to salvage, then you should run some risk. You don’t run any. Tht is just lame.
[ 2009.10.28 03:04:41 ] Vol Jbolaz > I think haulers get ganked more than miners.
[ 2009.10.28 03:04:48 ] Kellnirr Tiryon > You can stop suicide ganking, actually.
[ 2009.10.28 03:04:55 ] Prometheus09 > well you can spawn concord in a belt if you do that i cant gank you
[ 2009.10.28 03:04:55 ] Kellnirr Tiryon > Fit a better tank. xD
[ 2009.10.28 03:04:56 ] Casiella Truza > I don’t even have to salvage to get tears… this is just as good
[ 2009.10.28 03:05:05 ] Vol Jbolaz > Only by destroying your own wrecks.
[ 2009.10.28 03:05:11 ] Casiella Truza > Vol, you’re wrong about that, actually
[ 2009.10.28 03:05:17 ] Casiella Truza > You can also salvage as you go.
[ 2009.10.28 03:05:28 ] Chainer Cygnus > Or not care about your salvage
[ 2009.10.28 03:05:47 ] 00sage00 > or fit ECCM to make probing harder
[ 2009.10.28 03:05:51 ] Casiella Truza > Salvage does not belong to the mission runner. That’s been stated by CCP over and over and over.
[ 2009.10.28 03:05:55 ] Prometheus09 > this guy has some good advice on how to prevent from being ganked [ 2009.10.28 03:05:56 ] Vol Jbolaz > But still, there is 0 risk to the ninja. And you think that makes sense?
[ 2009.10.28 03:06:06 ] Casiella Truza > There’s zero risk to the mission runner, too.
[ 2009.10.28 03:06:10 ] Casiella Truza > And he doesn’t own the salvage.
[ 2009.10.28 03:06:13 ] Casiella Truza > That’s the rules.
[ 2009.10.28 03:06:15 ] Escoce > this is an old arguement no one is going to win
[ 2009.10.28 03:06:24 ] Kellnirr Tiryon > But it’s fun to watch, Escoce
[ 2009.10.28 03:06:27 ] Chainer Cygnus > I win it by not caring XD
[ 2009.10.28 03:06:30 ] Casiella Truza > It’s already won. CCP has been very clear about this topic.
[ 2009.10.28 03:06:46 ] Casiella Truza > Salvage as you go or quit whining (ie the Chainer approach )
[ 2009.10.28 03:06:59 ] Kellnirr Tiryon > But I have to agree with Casiella here. CCP has stated directly that salvage is up for ANYONE to take.
[ 2009.10.28 03:07:02 ] Escoce > I stopped arguing about it…I feel the way I feel…..Alt’s ruin the game, and the rules about griefing etc etc are very clear….eve is meant to be tough
[ 2009.10.28 03:07:07 ] Kellnirr Tiryon > Which is why it’s called salvage
[ 2009.10.28 03:07:25 ] 00sage00 > just be glad they can only take your salvage. in lowsec, i take their ships as well.
[ 2009.10.28 03:07:26 ] Vol Jbolaz > Okay, but I don’t ever want to hear Casi (or anyone in that camp) say that this game lets one do anythign they want. This game doesn’t. This game lets anyone do what they want, so long as they PvP. 
[ 2009.10.28 03:07:26 ] Casiella Truza > Personally I think loot should be free too, but then CCP disagrees with me on that
[ 2009.10.28 03:07:36 ] Casiella Truza > Vol, this is a PVP game.
[ 2009.10.28 03:07:36 ] Vol Jbolaz > Sage, I think that is more than fair.
[ 2009.10.28 03:07:53 ] Escoce > its one thing to have an alt, to be an “ALT” but when alts become mules which they most often are, is just a form of multi session mule, then it ruins it….
[ 2009.10.28 03:07:59 ] Casiella Truza > And I say that as someone who spends 90% of his gameplay trading.
[ 2009.10.28 03:08:03 ] Vol Jbolaz > This is an open game. I think people should do PvP or not. I couldn’t live without PvP. But I don’t want to force that on others.
[ 2009.10.28 03:08:10 ] Escoce > Vol, this IS a PvP game, and this is coming from a non-PvPer
[ 2009.10.28 03:08:14 ] Casiella Truza > ^^^
[ 2009.10.28 03:08:21 ] 00sage00 > i thought this was an EvE game
[ 2009.10.28 03:08:27 ] Casiella Truza > it is
[ 2009.10.28 03:08:29 ] Song Li > trading is PvP
[ 2009.10.28 03:08:32 ] Kellnirr Tiryon > You are never forced to PvP
[ 2009.10.28 03:08:32 ] Casiella Truza > “everyone vs everyone”
[ 2009.10.28 03:08:32 ] Varnoka > escoce: you do market stuff hence you pvp
[ 2009.10.28 03:08:40 ] Escoce > You can’t avoid PvP, but it’s not a non-PvP game
[ 2009.10.28 03:08:49 ] Vol Jbolaz > Kellnirr, you are always forced to PvP. Suicide ganking is way too easy.
[ 2009.10.28 03:08:51 ] Casiella Truza > I’m pvping against Escoce right now.
[ 2009.10.28 03:08:55 ] Escoce > varnoka, true, I mean head to head space battle
[ 2009.10.28 03:08:58 ] Casiella Truza > As we speak.
[ 2009.10.28 03:08:59 ] Kellnirr Tiryon > You can mine in a belt with a ton of warp stabs and a hard ass tank. Jump out when they attack.
[ 2009.10.28 03:09:06 ] Varnoka > I know just splitting hairs
[ 2009.10.28 03:09:09 ] Chainer Cygnus > Hell this argument is PvP
[ 2009.10.28 03:09:13 ] Casiella Truza > Or have a corpmate nearby
[ 2009.10.28 03:09:18 ] Vol Jbolaz > Yes, and you fit those stabs so you bent to PvP.
[ 2009.10.28 03:09:28 ] Kellnirr Tiryon > No, you bend to the possibilities.
[ 2009.10.28 03:09:31 ] Escoce > in fact, I think the way I fly through low sec is PvP, it’s evasion oriented, but i am still beggin to get shot at
[ 2009.10.28 03:09:32 ] Casiella Truza > The suicide ganker can’t just hit you and count on 15 seconds of free shots.
[ 2009.10.28 03:09:44 ] Kellnirr Tiryon > Also, if you are that much of a bear, play WoW on a PvE server =)
[ 2009.10.28 03:09:53 ] Casiella Truza > LOL
[ 2009.10.28 03:09:53 ] Varnoka > ughhh
[ 2009.10.28 03:09:58 ] Vol Jbolaz > Yes, Escoce, that is. And you chose it. That makes sense to me. If you want to stay in 1.0 running missions, you sholdn’t be forced to PvP.
[ 2009.10.28 03:10:09 ] Casiella Truza > Vol, that’s a design choice, and one that EVE did not make.
[ 2009.10.28 03:10:17 ] Escoce > Vol don’t worry all viewpoints ar erepsected here, we just also feel strongly about ours as much as you do about yours
[ 2009.10.28 03:10:25 ] Casiella Truza > although they do enforce rules slightly different in starter systems
[ 2009.10.28 03:10:26 ] Prometheus09 > well its not so much as PvP as a one way slaughter
[ 2009.10.28 03:10:30 ] Song Li > I thnk you’re all wrong
[ 2009.10.28 03:10:38 ] Kellnirr Tiryon > Yes. And the moment youtold us not to say our opinions, this became a blob xD
[ 2009.10.28 03:10:39 ] Chainer Cygnus > I don’t Escoce, I think everyone here is a blundering idiot :X
[ 2009.10.28 03:10:41 ] Debes Sparre > If you want to stay in 1.0 running missions, and have no interactions with other players (too late, you bought ships, and you sell your loot, you engage in market pvp), get the fuck out of my eve, kthkxbai
[ 2009.10.28 03:10:57 ] Casiella Truza > Wait, who said to not speak your opinions/
[ 2009.10.28 03:11:05 ] Casiella Truza > I don’t think even vol said that, did he?
[ 2009.10.28 03:11:06 ] Escoce > Chainer, I think you better check your contracts, I might hanve cancelled it by mistake ))
[ 2009.10.28 03:11:17 ] Kellnirr Tiryon > Vol Jbolaz > Okay, but I don’t ever want to hear Casi (or anyone in that camp) say that this game lets one do anythign they want. This game doesn’t. This game lets anyone do what they want, so long as they PvP.
[ 2009.10.28 03:11:20 ] Chainer Cygnus > oh noez! Fire ze lazers at him!
[ 2009.10.28 03:11:21 ] Vol Jbolaz > Yes, well that camp is in oppisition to the sand box idea. And just because CCP says it, doesn’t make it golden. They can make mistakes and some of those can be counter to their own sand box idea.
[ 2009.10.28 03:11:23 ] Casiella Truza > Oh, yeah.
[ 2009.10.28 03:11:41 ] Kellnirr Tiryon > =D
[ 2009.10.28 03:11:47 ] Casiella Truza > Vol, this game lets you do just about anything. You just have to live with the consequences.
[ 2009.10.28 03:11:49 ] Vol Jbolaz > If you want a sand box,then you have to let everyone have the option to do what they want. And that even means, yo uhave to have a mechanic by which people can chose to avoid PvP.
[ 2009.10.28 03:12:05 ] Casiella Truza > That mechanic restricts everyone else.
[ 2009.10.28 03:12:12 ] Casiella Truza > If you want that, go play on sisi.
[ 2009.10.28 03:12:27 ] Casiella Truza > You consent to PvP when you hit the “create character” button.
[ 2009.10.28 03:12:28 ] Escoce > Vol, you have the option to do what you want, the issue is the mechanics of the game by design to NOT make you implcitly safe in High Sec
[ 2009.10.28 03:12:29 ] Vol Jbolaz > No, it only means those few that don’t chose PvP aren’t targets.
[ 2009.10.28 03:12:42 ] Casiella Truza > You chose PvP by playing a PvP game.
[ 2009.10.28 03:12:44 ] Escoce > Casielle, my name is Escoce and I approve this message
[ 2009.10.28 03:12:49 ] Chainer Cygnus > There are places where PvE is encouraged and deemed safer, but the whole point of EVE is that nowhere is entirely safe. Unless you never undock.
[ 2009.10.28 03:12:58 ] Casiella Truza > As the old tagline goes
[ 2009.10.28 03:13:09 ] Casiella Truza > “CONCORD provides consequences, not safety. Only you can do that.”
[ 2009.10.28 03:13:26 ] 00sage00 > the fact that eve is multiplayer means that player interaction is unavoidable. some call it pvp. some call it trading.
[ 2009.10.28 03:13:43 ] Mike Azariah > I call it . . .amore
[ 2009.10.28 03:13:52 ] Escoce > Vol anyway, I am a “Carebear” if you want to call me that, and I support the whole PvP aspect of the game, and I completely applaud CCP for sticking to their guns and not caving in like every other god forsaken game producer out there
[ 2009.10.28 03:13:53 ] Debes Sparre > Vol: no, a sandbox means I can come over and kick over your castle, even if you don’t want me to.
[ 2009.10.28 03:13:59 ] Mike Azariah > when the moon hits your pos like a big santa clause, thats amore
[ 2009.10.28 03:14:32 ] Casiella Truza > Pew pew is not my primary playstyle. But I am not a carebear.
[ 2009.10.28 03:14:36 ] Kellnirr Tiryon > Jeez, I’m afraid to minimize for five seconds because I don’t wanna miss this discussion xD
[ 2009.10.28 03:14:36 ] Varnoka > not yet
[ 2009.10.28 03:14:48 ] Debes Sparre > Vol: one way or another, you’re impinging on someone’s “freedom”
[ 2009.10.28 03:14:49 ] Casiella Truza > I love the fact that EVE allows you to do whatever you want, as long as you’re willing to deal with the results.
[ 2009.10.28 03:14:54 ] Vol Jbolaz > Blah… Again, everyone seems to think I’m saying make the game safe. No. I’m just saying that people should not be forced into PvP. Once you go into 0.9, there is a risk. And to curb griefing, piracy should be hard so only real pirates will do it.
[ 2009.10.28 03:15:11 ] Debes Sparre > either you deny a carebear the right to total safety
[ 2009.10.28 03:15:24 ] Debes Sparre > or you deny a pvper the right to kill everything
[ 2009.10.28 03:15:35 ] Vol Jbolaz > Debes, I think forcing PvP does more to curb freedom.
[ 2009.10.28 03:15:49 ] Casiella Truza > Vol, piracy is hard
[ 2009.10.28 03:15:49 ] Prometheus09 > no it opens up freedom
[ 2009.10.28 03:15:52 ] Escoce > Vol, I hear what you are saying, I just don’t agree…the reason 1.0 is safer, is because there are usually more high sec systems between it and low sec, making it harder for pirates to get to you, but you are NEVER perfectly safe in the cold of space
[ 2009.10.28 03:16:09 ] Casiella Truza > If it wasn’t, more people would do it.
[ 2009.10.28 03:16:18 ] Mike Azariah > /emote agrees with escoce on this one
[ 2009.10.28 03:16:19 ] Debes Sparre > Vol: well, that’s what you think. Quantify that, and come back.
[ 2009.10.28 03:16:22 ] Varnoka > agree with Cas there
[ 2009.10.28 03:16:23 ] Casiella Truza > And pirates wouldn’t have ISK-generating alts.
[ 2009.10.28 03:16:29 ] Vol Jbolaz > But New Eden is not a complete wild west. When you go to the mall, will you be shot tomorrow? No? There are places that are so safe you let your guard down. There should be some here.
[ 2009.10.28 03:16:31 ] Mike Azariah > though the pure non pvp player can still play
[ 2009.10.28 03:16:34 ] Vol Jbolaz > This is still civilization.
[ 2009.10.28 03:16:39 ] Casiella Truza > Piracy is not economically viable for all but a select few.
[ 2009.10.28 03:16:46 ] Debes Sparre > I let my guard down when I go to 0.0.
[ 2009.10.28 03:16:48 ] Prometheus09 > vol people still do taht
[ 2009.10.28 03:16:53 ] Mike Azariah > they just are accepting the consequences, they can think of the pvp’ers as rogue parts of the environment
[ 2009.10.28 03:16:55 ] Kellnirr Tiryon > Um, people shoot people in malls.
[ 2009.10.28 03:16:56 ] Casiella Truza > New Eden != RL, you cannot compare that
[ 2009.10.28 03:16:57 ] Prometheus09 > they get punished after the fact
[ 2009.10.28 03:17:01 ] Kellnirr Tiryon > Fuck, people shoot people in thier own beds.
[ 2009.10.28 03:17:07 ] Prometheus09 > there is nothing stopping them from doing it
[ 2009.10.28 03:17:08 ] Debes Sparre > and really, if people didn’t let their guard down in 1.0, no one there would die.
[ 2009.10.28 03:17:16 ] Debes Sparre > QED: You’re wrong
[ 2009.10.28 03:17:23 ] Varnoka > ^^ this
[ 2009.10.28 03:17:26 ] Escoce > Vol, NYC isn’t the wild west either, yet there is a vacancy where there used to be two giant sky scrapers (is shamed to use that example, but there it is)
[ 2009.10.28 03:17:31 ] Vol Jbolaz > Debes, that is very faulty logic.
[ 2009.10.28 03:17:44 ] Escoce > they didn’t even log into the game
[ 2009.10.28 03:17:46 ] Vol Jbolaz > That says pirates can only kill if you let your guard down, that they are too lame to do more.
[ 2009.10.28 03:17:48 ] Mike Azariah > it can’t be faulty logic, he used latin and everything
[ 2009.10.28 03:17:57 ] Debes Sparre > Utterly true.
[ 2009.10.28 03:18:09 ] Debes Sparre > I have lived in lowsec and 0.0 for years.
[ 2009.10.28 03:18:10 ] Casiella Truza > Pirates can only kill you if you let your guard down and don’t prepare properly.
[ 2009.10.28 03:18:16 ] Vol Jbolaz > Escoce, that is an exception that helps prove the rule.
[ 2009.10.28 03:18:29 ] Debes Sparre > I have never been killed outside of being lazy and/or initiating the fight myself.
[ 2009.10.28 03:18:38 ] Song Li > Here’s my view on Eve. High sec is the city you see, with law and cops and generally cordial people. Low sec is the back alleys, the underground, the other side of hte tracks. 0.0 is the colonies where people group together to to form their own countrie
[ 2009.10.28 03:18:39 ] Escoce > its’ also an example that even in the deepest of empires, it’s not 100% safe
[ 2009.10.28 03:18:53 ] Casiella Truza > I live in a state with a [CCW] law, and (whatever the validity of it) the reasoning is that the police can catch and punish but not always prevent.
[ 2009.10.28 03:18:58 ] Escoce > song, pretty good analogy
[ 2009.10.28 03:19:18 ] Debes Sparre > Being lazy? I’m complacent.
[ 2009.10.28 03:19:22 ] Debes Sparre > Complacency kills.
[ 2009.10.28 03:19:23 ] Escoce > high sec is safer, just not perfectly safe
[ 2009.10.28 03:19:30 ] Song Li > escoce: It’s the vision I use to define how I think the areas mechanics should be designed
[ 2009.10.28 03:19:37 ] Mike Azariah > song, instead of cities substitute ‘The new world’ circa 1600′s
[ 2009.10.28 03:19:39 ] Vol Jbolaz > I love the analogy, Li. The problem is, the city is more like south central LA. That they safest place is still run by street gangs.
[ 2009.10.28 03:19:41 ] Casiella Truza > These tears will fuel my ships for at least a week.
[ 2009.10.28 03:19:42 ] Escoce > and shit, get a wardec, and all of a sudden the whole universe is low sec
[ 2009.10.28 03:19:50 ] Song Li > Have an end vision and reverse engineer the mechanics
[ 2009.10.28 03:20:08 ] Song Li > mike: Yeah that works
[ 2009.10.28 03:20:17 ] Kellnirr Tiryon > Vol, Irvine was voted the safest city in the country of the USA. There are still people who get shot there over drugs.
[ 2009.10.28 03:20:33 ] Kellnirr Tiryon > That is life. That is the world.
[ 2009.10.28 03:20:35 ] Escoce > Vol, washington DC is still a good analogy…..even the quad cities, which is the safest metropolis int eh USA still measures murders rates
[ 2009.10.28 03:20:56 ] Escoce > Well ok Irvine works, who cares which city, the point is the same
[ 2009.10.28 03:20:57 ] Mike Azariah > Oi!
[ 2009.10.28 03:21:03 ] Vol Jbolaz > Kellnirr, yes, but I imagine crime there is lower than Jita. Also…
[ 2009.10.28 03:21:07 ] Song Li > mike: Have to be faster
[ 2009.10.28 03:21:09 ] Song Li > 
[ 2009.10.28 03:21:09 ] Debes Sparre > Vol: I have yet to lose a ship in high sec in 4 years, except for twice during wars where I engaged first and once when I was flying my muninn through highsec while I was -5.5 and a stiletto caught me because I had no one scout for me, because I was com
[ 2009.10.28 03:21:24 ] Vol Jbolaz > this all started because there were people thinking that mechanics to avoid logical detection were too big of a nerf.
[ 2009.10.28 03:21:26 ] Kellnirr Tiryon > Jita? Jita is a huge sprawling trade hub.
[ 2009.10.28 03:21:27 ] Song Li > kellnirr: Do they buy my stuff?
[ 2009.10.28 03:21:27 ] Debes Sparre > complacent.
[ 2009.10.28 03:21:33 ] Escoce > Actually funny enough, I have only lost ships in high sec….why ? because I let my guard down
[ 2009.10.28 03:21:41 ] Vol Jbolaz > I’m sorry, but if you are in a ship and the gate patrols see you, there should be a spawn.
[ 2009.10.28 03:21:41 ] Kellnirr Tiryon > Sometimes. Sometimes they throw shit at it.
[ 2009.10.28 03:21:55 ] Kellnirr Tiryon > I agree.
[ 2009.10.28 03:22:03 ] Escoce > Other than once, 2 weeks after starting the game, and once about 6 months ago when learning a mechanics lesson, I have never lost a ship in low sec
[ 2009.10.28 03:22:05 ] Kellnirr Tiryon > But that’s not what we’re arguing about
[ 2009.10.28 03:22:11 ] Escoce > why ? cause you have vigilance
[ 2009.10.28 03:22:13 ] Vol Jbolaz > But that is where it started.
[ 2009.10.28 03:22:19 ] Vol Jbolaz > That is exactly what we are arguing.
[ 2009.10.28 03:22:25 ] Kellnirr Tiryon > …
[ 2009.10.28 03:22:34 ] Casiella Truza > I personally like the way it works. I like the Orca as a mini-carrier for pirates.
[ 2009.10.28 03:22:34 ] Escoce > arguing what? that you should fly AFK and feel at ease?
[ 2009.10.28 03:22:36 ] Kellnirr Tiryon > Um, we’re arguing whether people should be forced to PvP.
[ 2009.10.28 03:22:37 ] Chainer Cygnus > We’re arguing?
[ 2009.10.28 03:22:37 ] Escoce > wrong game mate
[ 2009.10.28 03:22:48 ] Debes Sparre > Vol: people who do not prepare get suicide ganked. Prepared people do not. I have hauled billions of isk in a mammoth through jita multiple times. Never get hit. Why? I planned ahead, I had a cloak, I had istabs, I had a tank fitted.
[ 2009.10.28 03:22:50 ] Casiella Truza > We’re not arguing. We’re telling Vol why he’s wrong.
[ 2009.10.28 03:22:52 ] Vol Jbolaz > Casi, as long as they stay away from sentry guns, I don’t mind it.
[ 2009.10.28 03:22:55 ] Kellnirr Tiryon > I never once said anything about ships.
[ 2009.10.28 03:23:16 ] Escoce > stay away from sentry guns?
[ 2009.10.28 03:23:22 ] Escoce > I am lost
[ 2009.10.28 03:23:38 ] Kellnirr Tiryon > You are arguing about suicide ganking, not people in stolen ships or w/e.
[ 2009.10.28 03:23:57 ] Vol Jbolaz > AS long as they pirates boarding their ships from the Orca stick to the belts and don’t go near the gates, I’m okay. once they go near a gate or station, there should be a spawn as though they entered the system in the ship.
[ 2009.10.28 03:24:10 ] Kellnirr Tiryon > Again, I agree.
[ 2009.10.28 03:24:23 ] Vol Jbolaz > Sorry, that was to clarify for Escoce.
[ 2009.10.28 03:24:26 ] Kellnirr Tiryon > But you ere arguing that people shouldn’t be able to suicide gank in 1.0.
[ 2009.10.28 03:24:38 ] Kellnirr Tiryon > Where the heck does the stupid Orca bug come in?
[ 2009.10.28 03:24:44 ] Vol Jbolaz > Casi is saying that is too much of a nerf for pirates, that they shouldn’t be a spawn until they jump.
[ 2009.10.28 03:24:45 ] Escoce > boarding ships
[ 2009.10.28 03:24:45 ] Casiella Truza > Vol, then you went down the path of 1.0 being perfectly safe and salvagers being griefing fools.
[ 2009.10.28 03:24:52 ] Varnoka > way back in the beginning Kell
[ 2009.10.28 03:24:57 ] Debes Sparre > yknow
[ 2009.10.28 03:25:00 ] Debes Sparre > back in MY day
[ 2009.10.28 03:25:04 ] Debes Sparre > we didn’t have salvage
[ 2009.10.28 03:25:05 ] Mike Azariah > here it comes
[ 2009.10.28 03:25:07 ] Vol Jbolaz > And yes, I still think there should be some risk for salvagers.
[ 2009.10.28 03:25:25 ] Escoce > there is risk for salvagers
[ 2009.10.28 03:25:26 ] Kellnirr Tiryon > Well, I’m gonna go ratting now. Maybe can flip a few people and collect some tears.
[ 2009.10.28 03:25:26 ] Casiella Truza > Why? There’s none for the mission runner…
[ 2009.10.28 03:25:27 ] Song Li > vol: I think I have a solution
[ 2009.10.28 03:25:32 ] Vol Jbolaz > We also didn’t have warp to 0.
[ 2009.10.28 03:25:33 ] Chainer Cygnus > The risk is there if they loot, salvaging is entirely free for all.
[ 2009.10.28 03:25:38 ] Debes Sparre > fuck no we didn’t
[ 2009.10.28 03:25:40 ] Kellnirr Tiryon > Vol’s tears are waaaaay too heavy to carry at this point.
[ 2009.10.28 03:25:43 ] Mike Azariah > up hill both ways
[ 2009.10.28 03:25:49 ] Escoce > there is NOTHING stopping you from retaliating or preparing yourself ahead of time
[ 2009.10.28 03:25:58 ] Debes Sparre > Mike: every way was uphill!
[ 2009.10.28 03:25:58 ] Casiella Truza > Kellnirr, at this point Vol’s tears can fuel POSs.
[ 2009.10.28 03:26:09 ] Cyberin > did someone mentioned Salvagers? 
[ 2009.10.28 03:26:13 ] Debes Sparre > back in my day, we didn’t HAVE downhill!
[ 2009.10.28 03:26:36 ] Escoce > young players NEED to learn the mistake of feeling safe, once you get passed that fact, most everyone has fun…it’s the people stuck on the perfect safety net, where is it? that don’t have fun
[ 2009.10.28 03:27:03 ] Vol Jbolaz > Tears? Seriously? Blah.
[ 2009.10.28 03:27:13 ] Escoce > No
[ 2009.10.28 03:27:17 ] Casiella Truza > It’s funny that the NPE is changing so new players get blown up and learn that it’s part of the game.
[ 2009.10.28 03:27:25 ] Escoce > just this isn’t a space version of WoW
[ 2009.10.28 03:27:45 ] Song Li > I think I have a simple solution for most of these missioner issues
[ 2009.10.28 03:27:52 ] Song Li > But CCP is not going to like it
[ 2009.10.28 03:27:54 ] Escoce > I do to, make mission PvP
[ 2009.10.28 03:27:58 ] Varnoka > NPE needs to teach how to wtz when in structure actually
[ 2009.10.28 03:27:58 ] Chainer Cygnus > Get rid of missions!
[ 2009.10.28 03:28:00 ] Escoce > read my blog
[ 2009.10.28 03:28:05 ] Escoce > No
[ 2009.10.28 03:28:08 ] 00sage00 > what’s your solution, song?
[ 2009.10.28 03:28:09 ] Escoce > don’t get rid of missions
[ 2009.10.28 03:28:11 ] Vol Jbolaz > Since you don’t care to really talk about it, I’m going to bed. Just because someone disaggress with you you think they are crying? Just because someone thinks others hould have choices, you think you are being nerfed? Whatever.
[at this point, Vol does indeed log]
[ 2009.10.28 03:28:12 ] Escoce > make them more interesting
[ 2009.10.28 03:28:33 ] Escoce > make them have a real player element to them instead of choreographed prescriptions
[ 2009.10.28 03:28:39 ] Casiella Truza > I’m not being nerfed. I’m a trader.
[ 2009.10.28 03:28:41 ] Chainer Cygnus > Oh 
Entertainment logoff….buzzkill….
[ 2009.10.28 03:28:51 ] Kellnirr Tiryon > Seriously.
[ 2009.10.28 03:28:52 ] Casiella Truza > I’m putting my own self at risk with my philosophies.
[ 2009.10.28 03:29:09 ] Escoce > Vol, not at all mate, promise, but if you keep at it, so will we cause we feel just as if not more strongly as you about it
[ 2009.10.28 03:29:09 ] Casiella Truza > Chainer, this is what we call a “forfeit”.
Image credit CarbonNYC via Flickr
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