Playstyle Tolerance: Carebears versus PvPers
NB: I had most of this written prior to Helicity’s rant. And I generally with much of that rant, actually, but after further reflection I realized it went too far and I needed to respond. Other worthwhile posts include those from Black Claw, Kirith Kodachi, Kant Lavar, and Luccul.
For all the talk about “carebears” in one direction, and “pirate Nazis” or whatever in the other direction, these folks really miss one of the core points about EVE: playstyle diversity.
Pirates and other PVPers need the folks they call “carebears“. Who else will produce their ships and modules and ammo and drones? Who else will buy the loot they pick up from their enemies’ wrecks so that they have ISK for new equipment and other fees?
And the real “carebears” — not just non-combat players, but those who express total moral outrage at not being left alone — need the PVPers. Who else will buy their stuff in significant quantities, or create demand by destroying other people’s stuff (that will then need replacement)? Yes, individuals might take a loss due to ganks or gate camps, but a bit of care can avoid most of that. And at any rate, we still make profits over time. Rewards require risk, after all. (Related to this, not all non-combat players actually count as carebears.)
Look, this should all be really obvious to everyone. But evidently it’s not, whether due to willful ignorance or an inability to play well with others (meaning sometimes you have to lose graciously).
We can’t all get along in-game, because that would get boring. In fact, we really shouldn’t: EVE revolves around competition in various guises. But can’t we all get along out of game?
Lost my Typhoon already
Tanker Explosion Test by SiamEye
While finishing up a mission in Frarn in my new Typhoon, I saw a salvager show up on my overview. No worries, I don’t mind. He does his thing, I do mine, and neither of us can complain. He flew a Malediction and seemed to know his business. We didn’t talk much, but I suppose that particular relationship doesn’t require a lot of communication.
As I got close to finishing the mission, another salvager showed up in a Vexor. Except he also looted my stuff and went flashy. Figuring I could handle a cruiser with my own drones, I opened fire upon him.
Bad move. The Vexor wasn’t too much trouble by himself, but with endless Amarrian battleships trying to tear large chunks out of my armor, he eventually wore me down. I couldn’t get away and I couldn’t work through his own armor. He had a Myrmidon friend there who also looted, but I chose not to fire upon him, figuring that would not lead to good things. (Not that this worked out a lot better, heh.)
Eh, live and learn. Check for possible backup and don’t engage another pod pilot when you’re already under heavy fire from NPCs.
(I’ll update with a killmail later.)
Blog Banter 14: Enabling the future
The first banter of 2010 comes to us from CrazyKinux himself, who asks the following: As we begin another year in New Eden, ask yourselves, “What Now?” What will I attempt next? What haven’t I done so far in EVE? Was it out of fear, funds, or knowledge? What steps and objectives will I set myself to accomplish in order to reach my ultimate goal for this year? EVE is what you make of it. So, what is it going to be for you?
Destination : Future by gilderic
I’ve had a rough idea of how I would like 2010 to go (EVE-wise) for a while, at least in some senses though not necessarily others. So let’s take a look…
Piracy in high-security space
It wasn't me!
Despite what Egonics and their ilk will tell us, copying music isn’t piracy. Doing violence against somebody’s ship to gain something from their cargo or passengers, though, definitely qualifies. And pilots can make a bit of ISK engaging in piracy, even in “high security space”.
So while CONCORD provides consequences., pilots have to provide their own safety. They can do so generally through tactical awareness, battlefield intelligence, and good flying. For example, let’s say a mining barge, such as a Retriever, sits calmly in a belt in 0.5 security space, mutilating rocks for commercial gain. Perhaps the local non-pod craft pirates (NPC rats) might harass them a little, but they keep a few combat drones deployed just to deal with the pesky little frigates. (That NPC pilot provides a great example of somebody with poor tactical awareness.) The Retriever doesn’t have much in the way of defensive equipment because the pilot doesn’t intend to get into any fights.
Now, a podder ship warps into the belt, maybe in a combat cruiser like a Rupture, and burns toward their ship. It could have arrived just to take out the rats and get the CONCORD bounty, but that assumption doesn’t actually protect the barge very much. Suddenly, the cruiser bumps the barge off of a possible alignment to a celestial, locks it, and opens fire.
CONCORD takes a few seconds to warp to the belt. During that time, the Rupture can get off four or five rounds from each of four autocannons, maybe a few heavy assault missile salvos, all enhanced by target painters. The Retriever will have exploded before CONCORD arrives, and the destruction of that pirate ship won’t console the victim very much. The pirate warps away from both wrecks in his pod.
Then it gets worse: another ship warps in and loots the wrecks. Oddly enough, those wrecks don’t belong to the victim pilot, but to the pirate. Now the victim, who might have swapped to a combat ship like a Rifter, or maybe a friend of said victim, open fire on this third ship out of frustration. Bad idea, because CONCORD enforces the law without favoritism or empathy. The victim of the first engagement has now broken the law and they will warp in before methodically scramming, jamming, and blamming. And the third ship gets away with the loot, for which the market will generally pay a decent amount if that Retriever had nice equipment on it. The Rupture pilot, who would have insured the ship that CONCORD destroyed, also probably used cheap “meta level 0″ equipment and not lost very much ISK. In fact, it could well be that the equipment from the Retriever easily pays the remainder of the replacement of the pirate’s ship.
Not that this happened in Nakugard tonight with any of my associates. Or Hek. (Or Uttindar, but that incident can get left out of this discussion…) No, I just think that pilots should understand how all this works.
Image credit Dyanna
Blogger tears
Sometimes, the EVE-Bloggers channel provides too much fun.
TL;DR: Vol Jbolaz believes that EVE players should have the ability to “opt out” of PVP and that players who choose to ‘force’ PVP on others have it too easy under the current design. The other denizens of that channel, at least those present last night around 0300 EVE time, did not agree.
UPDATE: Vol has posted a lengthy, thoughtful response on his own blog. I encourage everyone to go read it.
Feel free to share your thoughts below, but I will wield the moderation hammer for great justice if people get unduly rude toward others. That includes toward Vol, who deserves respect for standing up for his game philosophy (even if the philosophy itself doesn’t deserve respect :p ).
(Edited only for readability & typos, off-topic stuff, and such.)
The Essence of Piracy
I can haz ransom?
Some pirates use their head. They grab your industrial quickly with a heavy interdictor (whose “infinite point” overrides any warp core stabilizers), invite you quickly to a private channel, negotiate a ransom, and send you on your way.
Other pirates, not so much. They just two-volley you with multiple gank battleships, getting less ISK in the process.
Yes, you can haz my ransom
And some of us traders should think through their own tactics a little more so as not to run into both types in the same trip. Because last night… well, let’s just say Essence has more variety than my friend might have thought. I mean, it happened to a friend, but it could happen to anybody, right? Everybody gets caught sometimes…
Image credits EssjayNZ and shutupyourface via Flickr
Musings on loss
I’ve rejoined the Minmatar militia, this time with Ghost Outrider. I’ve started a series over at EVE-Mag, “Ghost Outrider in the Sky“, which will chronicle her adventures from an IC first-person perspective. (By the way, don’t get intimidated at all about submitting a piece to them. Very friendly folks and I didn’t have any trouble working with them.)
In any case, I didn’t want to put a whole lot here so that I leave material for there, but I did want to muse on my recent loss of a Cyclone to the Python Cartel which led to an amusing little exchange in Local.
[ 2009.09.10 03:01:29 ] EVE System > Channel changed to Arzad Local Channel
[ 2009.09.10 03:03:04 ] Ghost Outrider > Thought you folks would give up the chase
[ 2009.09.10 03:03:20 ] Ghost Outrider > Was worth a try, anyway
[ 2009.09.10 03:06:46 ] Ghost Outrider > /emote sings, “shot dowwwwn in a blaze of glory”
[ 2009.09.10 03:07:15 ] Spectre3353 > your vocal talents are inspiring
[ 2009.09.10 03:07:31 ] Ghost Outrider > Thanks, some days it’s all I got.
[ 2009.09.10 03:09:16 ] Ghost Outrider > You folks are quiet.
[ 2009.09.10 03:09:31 ] Ghost Outrider > I figured the pilot who singlehandedly wiped out the Goons would have lots to say…
[ 2009.09.10 03:09:39 ] Ghost Outrider > I mean, they felt the pain you laid down on them.
[ 2009.09.10 03:10:02 ] Spectre3353 > i try to keep quiet these days because i dont want to hurt anyones feelings
[ 2009.09.10 03:10:11 ] Spectre3353 > im like a pirate bull in a carebear china shop
[ 2009.09.10 03:10:12 ] Ghost Outrider > I’ve got a thick skin, really.
[ 2009.09.10 03:11:54 ] Ghost Outrider > You folks enjoy your roam.
[ 2009.09.10 03:12:00 ] Spectre3353 > thanks bud
[ 2009.09.10 03:12:01 ] Spectre3353 > cya later
This happened after they’d seen me on a gate when they arrived just after my scout had jumped through, then pursued me through several star systems. I was running a mission for the Tribal Liberation Force and so had a mission fit, not set up for PVP at all (though usually I do when I run TLF missions). As I told my corp’s XO, wartime involves losses. “Can’t win ‘em all,” my dad would say. (Given my win/loss record, that’s particularly true.)
Look, folks, at the end of the day, we’re all just playing with Internet spaceships. I don’t get frothing-at-the-mouth angry when somebody takes my rook playing Chess, or when my daughter beats me at tic-tac-toe. Despite all the anger about pirates, gankers, and what-have-you, I distinctly remember my childhood lessons on good sportsmanship. We were always taught to lose (and win) graciously. I gambled and lost; next time, maybe they’ll take the hit. Or maybe we’ll end up shooting at the same people.
And for those who complain that the other side doesn’t act graciously when they win: remember, they fuel their ships with your tears. Crying only adds to their victory. Smile, nod, and act like you know it’s just a game.
Image credits somethingstartedcrazy and pareeerica via Flickr
Ghost Outrider rides again
Thanks to the magic of the timecode bazaar, I have reactivated Ghost Outrider’s account. She has just over 5m SP and focuses almost exclusively on combat with Minmatar ships and weaponry. More fiction featuring her and that slightly more fantastical writing style I have occasionally explored will appear here soon.
But I need help from you friendly (hah hah) EVE bloggers and players. I really want to indulge in some PVP for the next couple of months. And you may have noticed that I like to tell a story through gameplay, though this need not require roleplay in the strictest sense. “Ghost Outrider” has mixed Brutor/Thukker heritage and tends to support the traditions of her Thukker tribe over the Republic or even current tribal leadership when they conflict in any way. To date, I’ve explicitly avoided missions against Angels because I want to stay out of the pirate faction standing hole. Yes, this makes mission running and raising my Thukker standings difficult, but that’s life for a representational roleplayer.
For the moment, then, I need to choose between joining the Tribal Liberation Force (or an associated militia corp) and traditional low-sec piracy. I realize that the two don’t have to exclude each other and frequently don’t. For now and for me, however, I want to focus on one at a time.
I participated in factional warfare when CCP first released it, but with the impending FW changes in Apocrypha 1.5 and the continuing evolution of the NPC storylines, this imperfect game system still holds substantial interest for me. I can also continue to traverse Republic high-sec without any real concerns about security status. Then again, I don’t like the downtime plex shuffling mechanic, the focus on blob warfare, or the cesspool of Militia Chat.
But the yarr still calls to me. Terrorizing Amarrian or possibly even Caldari low-sec in a Rifter… mmmm. EVE’s support for piracy has undeniable romanticism, and you pirate bloggers feed that quite well. I’ve done essentially none of this and don’t even know whether I’d seek out a pirate corp (as it might prove difficult to find one where I’d fit), but anybody who knows anything about EVE has felt the call of the yarr.
Feedback! Comments! Suggestions! Whatever! I’d love to hear what you have to say.
Photo credit: Russ Morris via Flickr
Got caught
While looking for data storage facilities in Heimatar last night, I ended up tracking down an Angel Provisional Outpost, sort of a way station for their smaller craft. Frigates and cruisers buzzed all around but couldn’t provide a real threat to the Dark Perigee II, a well-equipped passive-tank Drake and my flights of drones. After I entered their complex, the Angels sent several flights of reinforcements who never returned. I picked up what I could from their wreckage and kept going.
However, they’d built this outpost in a pocket of deadspace in low-sec, meaning I needed to keep a close eye on my surroundings to stay safe. In this sort of situation, my directional scanner is maybe the best tool I have. The non-podder ships don’t provide much of a threat, so I set the range to 1 AU and 360 degrees to see what lands close by. If a probe or (worse!) a recon ship show up, I’ll align to some warpable object and leave as soon as somebody comes into the area. This assumes I’ve reached a safe distance from the warp-in point. I’ll also align the camera drone back in the direction of the original gate and bring down the range to 15k km, scanning from time to time.
After I’d reached the last section of the complex, however, and happily let my drones and missiles clear away a large chunk of the frigates there, the scanner showed a Brutix and a Lachesis and another battlecruiser in that 15k range. At this point, I didn’t want to stick around just for the chance of an escalation, I aligned and warped out with no trouble. I guess I left a few wrecks behind for their troubles.
But when I cleared the gate into the next system, Gusandall, I saw an Ishkar and a Megathron belonging to the Mean Coalition and KenZoku sitting about 12k km away. This didn’t look good, as the Dark Perigee II’s align time won’t break any records. They scrammed and webbed me pretty quickly after I started to align to the next gate, so I targeted the Ishkar who had already come under sentry gun fire and let my drones and missiles fly.
As you might expect, these didn’t do much more than scratch his armor, not even coming close to breaking his tank, and I lost the ship. I saved the pod, obviously (how do pilots lose these at low-sec gate camps?), issuing the warp command as the hull started to disintegrate around me. I made my way back to my forward operating base in Emolgranlan and informed Vikarion of the loss.
I just hope they picked up any surviving crew after I exchanged a few friendly words in the local podder comm channel with them. Sometimes you need to swallow your pride a little, even when it stings going down.
Rudeness doesn't pay
While performing my usual public service tonight, this time in Penirgman, I ran across a number of privateer wrecks that presented navigational hazards to system traffic. Being such a civic-minded pilot, I elected to assist the local podder, crvena strijela of Axon Corp, in clearing these hazards by salvaging from the wrecks.
Evidently, though, he didn’t like that very much.
[04:55:40] Casiella Truza > Need something?
[04:56:05] crvena strijela > and u?
[04:56:14] Casiella Truza > You convoed me
[04:57:19] crvena strijela > why are y salvaging my wrecks?
[04:57:26] Casiella Truza > Oh, I hoped you were going to shoot. Because they’re there?
[05:00:47] Casiella Truza > Thanks for clearing the ships for me, though, I appreciate it greatly. Saves me a lot of time and effort.
[05:01:13] crvena strijela > u stupid bitch
[05:01:53] Casiella Truza > That’s not a nice thing to say at all. Just for that, I’m taking this head.
[05:02:15] crvena strijela > fuck off
Well, that just won’t do. Didn’t his family teach him better etiquette?
I’d just finished clearing the last wreck, leaving the containers for him, when he called me names. So instead, I took the head of the privateer commander whom his agent had sent him out to kill and docked up before he could even target my little Bantam.
I suppose that I do have a soft spot for pilots, so I contracted the trophy back to him, at first for 15m ISK. He claimed it wasn’t worth it for the mission, that he was only getting 800k for the level 4 mission. (He really needs a new agent, if that’s so.)
Now, my CEO, Vikarion, he takes good care of his people. He doesn’t like insults to us, either. So he talked to him, too:
[ 2009.02.15 05:07:33 ] Vikarion > Hello, Mr. Strijela
[ 2009.02.15 05:07:48 ] crvena strijela > hi
[ 2009.02.15 05:07:55 ] Vikarion > I have it on good authority that you have been insulting and demeaning one of my employees.
[ 2009.02.15 05:08:20 ] Vikarion > One Casiella Truza, to be exact.
[ 2009.02.15 05:08:44 ] crvena strijela > so why are your employees steeling?
[ 2009.02.15 05:09:21 ] Vikarion > As you are no doubt aware, our activities are perfectly legal under CONCORD law. Salvaging is expressly permitted, and wrecks belong to no one.
[ 2009.02.15 05:10:04 ] crvena strijela > that is why i didnt shoot her
[ 2009.02.15 05:10:09 ] Vikarion > As a result of your hostilities, our employee has thus retrieved an item important to you.
[ 2009.02.15 05:10:21 ] crvena strijela > y
[ 2009.02.15 05:10:32 ] Vikarion > I suggest you apologize for you profanity and buy the item back.
[ 2009.02.15 05:10:50 ] crvena strijela > maybe!!!!?
[ 2009.02.15 05:10:57 ] Vikarion > crvena strijela > u stupid bitch
[ 2009.02.15 05:11:25 ] Vikarion > crvena strijela > fuck off
[ 2009.02.15 05:11:35 ] Vikarion > Your words, as I recall.
[ 2009.02.15 05:11:57 ] Vikarion > Such insults have been known to lead to war, Mr. Strijela.
[ 2009.02.15 05:12:21 ] Vikarion > Would your CEO be pleased with such an occurrence?
[ 2009.02.15 05:13:19 ] crvena strijela > dont know, have to ask him!
[ 2009.02.15 05:14:29 ] Vikarion > I see. A word of advice: don’t start fights you have neither the ISK nor the capacity to prosecute.
[ 2009.02.15 05:15:16 ] crvena strijela > i didnt start, she did
[ 2009.02.15 05:15:53 ] Vikarion > Ah, but you did. Insults are an offense to us. And she is within her rights to salvage where she likes, what she likes, without being insulted.
[ 2009.02.15 05:16:17 ] Vikarion > If she was shooting at you, I might be more compelled to understanding.
[ 2009.02.15 05:16:42 ] crvena strijela > well! i didnt know that
[ 2009.02.15 05:16:53 ] crvena strijela > but she wasnt nice
[ 2009.02.15 05:16:54 ] Vikarion > /emote nods.
[ 2009.02.15 05:17:33 ] Vikarion > I’ll let it pass, this time, I think. Everyone makes mistakes. She has said she will contract you the item back for a…reasonable price.
[ 2009.02.15 05:17:42 ] Vikarion > Good day.
Because I have that soft spot, I lowered the price to 2m and re-offered it to him. The 15 million never was a number I really expected, but more of a tweak. Then we talked about it for a while, as he really didn’t want to pay that much.
[05:20:57] Casiella Truza > You need that head for your agent?
[05:21:16] crvena strijela > yes
[05:21:26] Casiella Truza > I contracted it to you, you can get it and complete the mission
[05:21:59] crvena strijela > 15 000 000 is not worth
[05:22:20] Casiella Truza > You sure? I mean, I can do business. What’s the ISK completion for the mission?
[05:23:11] crvena strijela > 800000
[05:23:31] Casiella Truza > That seems low for an L4. Does that include the time bonus?
[05:23:44] crvena strijela > with bonus
[05:24:22] Casiella Truza > That seems low. Tell you what, I’ll contract it to you for 2m and that way you won’t lose any loyalty points.
[05:24:54] crvena strijela > so what u think it is worth for me?
[05:25:08] Casiella Truza > do you want to lose standings with the corp?
[05:25:13] Casiella Truza > Those are a pain to make up again.
[05:26:00] crvena strijela > will give u 1, with things u salvage makes 2
[05:26:21] Casiella Truza > The salvage is already mine, that’s not much negotiation. Plus, you were rude, and that just hurt my feelings.
[05:27:03] crvena strijela > so i was suppose to be nce!!!?
[05:28:14] crvena strijela > u will take head anyway
[05:28:33] Casiella Truza > No, I’ll offer it on contract to you and you can complete the mission, get the standings, etc.
[05:28:49] Casiella Truza > Or, you know, don’t. Your decision, but you seem like a smart guy.
[05:29:42] crvena strijela > 1 mill is my last decission
[05:30:07] Casiella Truza > The contract is up for 2m. Take it or leave it.
[05:30:37] crvena strijela > forget
[05:31:34] Casiella Truza > It’ll take you quite a few missions to make up the standings decrease for failing the mission.
[05:32:04] crvena strijela > i have time
[05:32:48] Casiella Truza > I don’t have anything to lose here. You do. Consider this a lesson in etiquette, and a cheap one at 2 million.
[05:33:00] crvena strijela > will do one mission level 4 and that is it
[05:33:09] Casiella Truza > Others might have wardecced your corp, and from what I can tell your corp doesn’t do well in those.
[05:33:24] Casiella Truza > But we’re more civilized, offering you a chance to resolve this amicably.
[05:33:42] Casiella Truza > I suspect it’ll take a lot more than one mission to make it up, crvena.
[05:34:55] crvena strijela > 1.2mill
[05:35:23] Casiella Truza > The contract is already up, you can take it as is. It’ll stay there for 3 days so you have plenty of time to think it over.
[05:35:30] Casiella Truza > But the bonus time on your mission will expire
[05:35:34] Casiella Truza > making your loss even worse
[05:36:12] crvena strijela > see that is why i offered u 1.2
[05:36:28] Casiella Truza > Why?
[05:37:01] Casiella Truza > I came <i>way</i> down from my initial 15m. The least you can do is take it for 2 and we both go on our merry ways.
[05:37:03] crvena strijela > bec of bonus time
[05:37:35] Casiella Truza > You could also just take it now, get your bonus and standings, and not lose anything.
[05:38:15] crvena strijela > of course you came down bec i will not pay that
[05:38:48] Casiella Truza > I’m just trying to give you a chance. Otherwise, I’ll just keep it in my hangar as a reminder to myself.
[05:39:10] crvena strijela > think we are both loosing
[05:39:25] crvena strijela > time and isk
[05:39:27] Casiella Truza > I’m not losing anything.
[05:39:45] Casiella Truza > Every minute that goes by is a minute you <i>could</i> be running another mission.
[05:40:34] crvena strijela > i just wanted to finish this mission and go to sleep
[05:40:49] Casiella Truza > So do that, it’s all in your control, crvena.
[05:40:59] crvena strijela > where are u from?
[05:41:07] Casiella Truza > Why do you ask?
[05:41:37] crvena strijela > bec it is very late here
[05:41:53] Casiella Truza > It’s not that late, for me I’ll be around for a while.
[05:42:34] crvena strijela > well here is 5:40
[05:42:46] crvena strijela > am
[05:43:16] Casiella Truza > Wow, that’s late. You probably need to turn in your mission and get some rest.
[05:43:38] crvena strijela > y
[05:44:04] Casiella Truza > So just go ahead and take the contract. I’d hate to see you lose out on the bonus money and all, too.
[05:45:05] crvena strijela > loook i wil give u 1.2 mill and that is it
[05:45:29] Casiella Truza > you can’t go any higher at all? I mean, not even 1.8?
[05:46:43] Casiella Truza > Hmm, I’m looking at this Bestower you lost.
[05:46:49] Casiella Truza > You had a lot of salvage in there.
[05:47:45] Casiella Truza > You’ve got plenty of ISK.
He left the conversation momentarily due to some communications disruption on his end. We kept talking about it, though, as I was in-station anyway to take care of some personal business.
[05:49:32] crvena strijela > lost conection
[05:49:49] Casiella Truza > So, I just realized you have lots of salvage, if you can lose all that in your Bestower.
[05:49:54] Casiella Truza > 2m seems like a good price.
[05:49:55] crvena strijela > have u decided?
[05:50:13] Casiella Truza > http://www.battleclinic.com/eve_online/pk/view.php?type=corp&name=Axon+Corp&id=5621405&page=1&filter=losses#mail
[05:51:10] Casiella Truza > Just about a month ago, right? I’m sure you’ve made it all up since then.
[05:52:44] crvena strijela > well that is another reason i dont want to pay
[05:53:27] Casiella Truza > I’m firm on the 2 million. You will just have to make your agent mad otherwise, and those standings take a big hit when you fail.
[05:55:15] crvena strijela > i know they hit hard, but i just dont want to pay
[05:55:59] Casiella Truza > Your decision, but it seems like a waste for you to do that over a measly extra 800k. You made that just off the one large gun I saw in one of the wrecks.
[05:59:01] crvena strijela > look
[05:59:21] Casiella Truza > Yes?
[05:59:24] crvena strijela > it is even not in money
[05:59:44] Casiella Truza > Eh?
[06:00:03] crvena strijela > it is in charisma
[06:00:25] Casiella Truza > I don’t follow what you’re saying
[06:00:38] crvena strijela > how long r u playing?
[06:01:22] Casiella Truza > Well, I’m going to head out for a bit. The contract is there, it’s up to you.
Poor kid, his agent will really yell at him for this. Maybe next time he’ll treat people more politely.
